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Mazda corrosion.

6176 Views 16 Replies 9 Participants Last post by  Slushbox
Further to my little rant on another post I spotted a while back what I thought were the beginnings of surface rust breaking through the paint on the rear arch, offside. Due to health, weather etc I just haven't had the opportunity to get anything done with it.

During the week I had the car in at a local garage, one that has done some work for me, work that I simply can't tackle anymore, I thought I could hear the exhaust blowing so thought that with the drive to and from Roddy's upcoming Birthday bash and my Brother visiting later on in the month, I best get it looked at.

They are a company that despite my reservations about custom exhausts, which does still stand as they are never proven items but just an assembly of bits that happen to fit, fitted a larger centre resonator to my system as it was just getting silly loud, we later found that the original resonator had lost all its internal packing, hence it getting louder and louder, what they fitted for me was a like for like but approx. 40mm longer resonator unit, this brought the car back to acceptable noise levels. Anyway, they found that the exhaust was all fine, possibly been a product of my own imagination after a lovely evening drive last week, it was out on some local country roads and a mixture of gentle driving mixed with some serious blatting, I reckon it has been during the havy blatting that I have just percieved it to be getting louder due to the amount of trees, walls etc close to the roadside and the fact I haven't been out for such a drive for a while.

That's the good news, however, with absolute credit to this outfit, the Mechanic had spotted the still surface rust breaking through the paint and told me about it, he said that he'd spotted it and knowing how particular I am about the car, thought it best to tell me. 10/10 for attention to detail but in fairness they do have a contract to service and maintain a fleet of supercars that are hired for track days, there was a Lamborghini Gallardo and an Audi R8 sitting in their shop, last time I was out they had a McLaren 570s up on the ramps, fair to say they are on the ball.

To the point after that lot of waffle :giggle: I find it astounding and really unacceptable that the GM, registered in November 2011 has the beginnings of what, if left could turn to serious corrosion. I do believe that it is in part due to erosion of the paint due to where it is, to forward inner flange that connects the rear wing to the inner wheel arch by spot welds, it will see a fair bit of road dirt being blasted at it epecially in the wet but really for a modern car it really is not acceptable.

As I mentioned in the other post, we just traded the faithful Fiesta in for the Focus and depite it being seven months older than the GM, kept outside, used every single day more or less, that car had absolutely no rust on any body panel. It really begs the perennial question of just what the hell Mazda are playing at. By contrast to the Fiesta, the GM is garaged in a fairly well insulated garage (never below 7 degrees over last winter) with a dehumidifier running full time, one would expect this to help if not prevent such premature corrosion taking place.

I've seen it used as an excuse for some of their failings but being a smaller player in the international markets is not and cannot be used as an an excuse, they know the markets they sell to and want to play in the big open market so should as a responsible manufacturer take the required steps to safeguard their vehicles for staring to rust so badly often within months of a customer taking delivery from new.

Now, I would certainly never entertain buying any other Mazda other than an MX5 but this is based on mechanical durabilty and the way the car handles out of the box mostly, unless the geo is badly out, not uncommon though and many people drive their 5s without ever having a geo done as they percieve it as handling and driving well, trust me, getting a geo done should be done as it can release so much more even if you think the car drives well, a good geo will always improve the drive of any 5.

As for rectification of this corrosion, I was already on it and gathering the required materials to make a proper repair. I will need to mask off the area needing attention then remove all existing paint, treat with Dinotril rust convertor possibly paint over with POR15 on both the inside and outside of this flange (now now :giggle: ) spray with POR15 undercoat and then finish off with the basecoat colour applied by airbrush and then ensure that I apply multiple coats of clearcoat, certainly many more than it ever saw at the factory to just add strength by sheer thickness of the clear coat. This would probably need to then be blended in with wet and dry and then machine polished down to avoid a large visible step between the transitional edge. I am considering applying along that inner surface a strip of 3M VentureShield to protect from erosion from road borne detritus, hopefully doing this and taking my time to do so should provide a lifetime of protection.

It's worthy of note that Ford use 3M VentureShield or similar on certain areas of their cars, noteably on areas that may be suceptablle to high levels of errosion. I also once noticed while in a local Morgan dealership that the front wings on new Morgans have a similar clear film applied to the front wings of the cars to stop stone chip damage. Whatever they were using was all but invisible but very tough and virtually invisible, apparently it polished just as well as a clearcoat does so will remain as a virtually invisible yet replaceable shield.

Sorry for the long post but it is in some respects a tale of caution for in particular NC owners to keep an eye open on this area and if it is presently clear of signs of erosion of the paint to potentially get a protective film such as the VentureShield applied.

As you may also gather, I'm pretty peed of with Mazda yet again for failing to provide that which is expected of any modern car.
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As with most things of this nature Steve, the bit of rust you see in cases like this is usually just the tip of the iceberg. I know on the Mk1 that when the rust appears through the outer metal it's the last place it emerges, and the first you see of it - i.e there's the likelihood of more lurking inside where you can't see. It may be an idea to get a borescope in there for a wee look. I'm not sure of the structure around that area of the Mk 3 but on the NA it's a very complex arrangement of outer / inner membrane sills and box sections.

There have been several cases of advanced rust found n the MK3 of late - if any of the FB MX5 groups are anything to go by - some of the photos that have been posted up of 2005 / 6 cars in the advanced stages of corrosion are pretty horrendous. Not saying yours is that bad by any means but having seen the rust emerge on the outer panels it would IMO pay you do an in-depth investigation to see exactly where it's got to, and how far it's travelled.

Did you not Dinitrol your car from new? I thought you had.
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Flo has rust bubbles on her wheel arches :(
Not just the NC either...my ND was only 18 months old, with 6,666 miles on the 'clock' when I sold it, yet there was rust already forming on the front sub-frame welds, visible from under the bonnet, down beside the engine. Some of the under-bonnet fasteners, ie, hose-clips, nuts, bolts and screws were already brown with rust too. I don't think the ND will last any longer than previous models - maybe even less time.

This is bloody sad because the Mazda 2 GT Sport is one of the few cars on our short list for next year when I get my licence back. It is good looking and very well spec'd, especially with the 115bhp, 200nm engine and 6-speed 'box, yet I am wary about the probable lack of corrosion protection. If we do have another Mazda we'll PCP it again so that longevity won't be our problem. It is unacceptable though, as Steve said.

By way of comparison, Caroline's 2009, 55,000 mile FIAT 500C has no rust whatsoever anywhere in the body or underside. A nine year-old FIAT convertible which has lived outside all it's life and driven everyday, throughout the year, with no signs of body corrosion!

Most of us here will remember a time, not that far off, when FIATs were being written off due to structural corrosion at the second or third MoT (5 - 6 years). Remember the Alfasud, or the Lancia Beta? They suffered horrific corrosion after only 3 - 4 years on the road.

Surely in this day and age we shouldn't need to be concerned about corrosion like this...in a Mazda?

Just not good enough I'm afraid :nah:
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As with most things of this nature Steve, the bit of rust you see in cases like this is usually just the tip of the iceberg. I know on the Mk1 that when the rust appears through the outer metal it's the last place it emerges, and the first you see of it - i.e there's the likelihood of more lurking inside where you can't see. It may be an idea to get a borescope in there for a wee look. I'm not sure of the structure around that area of the Mk 3 but on the NA it's a very complex arrangement of outer / inner membrane sills and box sections.

There have been several cases of advanced rust found n the MK3 of late - if any of the FB MX5 groups are anything to go by - some of the photos that have been posted up of 2005 / 6 cars in the advanced stages of corrosion are pretty horrendous. Not saying yours is that bad by any means but having seen the rust emerge on the outer panels it would IMO pay you do an in-depth investigation to see exactly where it's got to, and how far it's travelled.

Did you not Dinitrol your car from new? I thought you had.
I'm almost 100% certain that the corrosion that is visible is as far as it will go. The reason is that yes, the car was liberally Dinotrolled at approx 18 months old, perhaps earlier by myself and the area in and around the rear arches was really liberally done because of the complex structure in there. As you say, this is a key area of strength for the car hence the complexity of the structure behind the bodywork. It was fully Dinotrolled professionally last year, cavities etc all done, the borescope used then showed that it was all clean inside the cavities.

It really does look as if the paint has simply been eroded by road spray carrying abrasive particulates rather than breakthrough rust from behind. It almost looks like it's just been lightly shot blasted and the surface rust is starting. It runs in a band approx 2/3 of the width of the flanges connecting rear wing to inner arch. There is no bubbling and as far as I have seen so far, there is nothing affected on the reverse side, however once I'm physically able it will be up on the jack, wheel off, the fibre liner removed, lights, mirrors and everything else needed to get a better view of it all. If it makes any sense it looks like dry rust rather than wet soggy rusting, that would really have me worried, this as I see it for the moment is cosmetic but still needs to be treated seriously.
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Flo has rust bubbles on her wheel arches :(
It's sickening really Pat and even with a full dealer service history complete with bodywork checked as required to keep warranty, when you read the corrosion warranty, it is limited to actual perforation of body panels, more worryingly there is no mention of any structural components being covered at all i.e. it isn't worth the paper it's written on unless you are very unlucky and have had the appropriate checks carried out at service times.
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Just to put into contect the corrosion I have been talking about, some images, quality is poor due to it being a mobile trying to focus unsighted by me:

Water Automotive lighting Tints and shades Underwater Ceiling


Hood Liquid Water Automotive lighting Automotive tire


Wood Gas Door Tints and shades Automotive tire


Not much at all I know and if the car was say ten years old then OK, but not on a six and a half year old car that as said has had a very easy life in terms of bodywork care.

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That's exactly how I imagined it from your description, Steve. My previous, 10-plate NC2 was showing the same signs of paint abrasion and corrosion at 6 years-old. Mine also had rust starting under the sills on both sides, along the flange which joins the sill with the floor-pan.

This was pointed out by my dealer at the time and he suggested a "good wire-brushing and Waxoyling" Wire-brushing!! On a 6 year-old, modern sports car!!

When I bought it new, showroom fresh, in 2010, I really believed it would last me for as long as I wanted it to with certainly no thoughts about corrosion. It just isn't something that car buyers have needed to be concerned about in recent years is it? Certainly for the last 20 years the issue has been more about the failure of complex electrics than body/chassis corrosion.

Mazda have, with the MX-5, taken us back to the joys of 60s and 70s sports car motoring in more ways than we envisaged - they have included authentic 60s and 70s terminal body rot!

An extra tenner's worth of undersqueal, properly applied on the production line, is all that's required.
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Yep...the Ae is suffering too....And probably worse being white!

But then I'm hoping to change within the next 12 months.....

Tire Automotive tire Automotive lighting Rim Automotive design


Automotive tire Motor vehicle Vehicle brake Automotive exterior Rim


This is the 04 Vitara.... for comparison....

Hood Wood Motor vehicle Fish Fender


Below is the Mazda 2 at 13 months old....

Tire Wheel Automotive tire Vehicle Motor vehicle


Car Vehicle Automotive tire Hood Motor vehicle

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It's not just the corrosion that Mazda are having problems with.

I nearly bought a CX-5 with the Diesel engine a couple of years back. The only thing that stopped me was I could see how diesel was about to be demonised. As yet the only CX-5 with petrol power is the 2 litre front drive version. Not powerful enough for me and I wanted AWD.

As a member of a CX-5 forum I've been pushing for the 2.5 petrol auto AWD version the rest of the world gets but it doesn't look like Mazda think they can sell enough over here. Haven't they heard of the anti diesel panic going on?

In the meantime I've been keeping up on issues with the diesel variant and it isn't a rosy picture. Initial Diesel engines had the 'increasing oil level syndrome' where fuel would dilute the sump oil. This is supposed to have been fixed but there are now reports of destroyed engines due to cooling issues. Mazda are starting to refuse to cover this on warranty as they are with fabric hood replacements for the ND.

It doesn't inspire confidence in Mazda.

Just to emphasise that I'm not bashing Mazda I have seen some scary issues over on the BMW X1 forum. And BMW is supposed to be a quality brand.

I guess all manufacturers have problems with new vehicles and the various forums only highlight the bad ones. It does make selecting a new car more difficult but it is better to be informed rather than ignorant before handing over large wodges of cash.

The more I look the more I feel the sensible thing to do is hang on to the NC...until it rusts :(
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I wish I'd taken some photos of the ST150 before I swapped it in for the 180, it was at 10 years old like new underneath with not a spec of corrosion starting anywhere. The 180 is only just 18 months old but I had one of the rear wheels off it last week to repair a scuffed rim - courtesy of a transit flat bed which cut a corner and forced me into a kerb - that is also showing zero signs of any rust starting. The relevance of this is: I bought my 2011 Sportblack at a similar age and mileage - ST180 at 5k miles and the Sportblack on a little over 7k miles and about 20 months old.

This was the Sportblack just after I bought it:

Rear end - note the rust starting to form along the welds of the subframe - don't forget this was a bit over 18 months old and 7K miles!

IMG_7898a.jpgimage

Top front shock mount

[url=https://postimages.org/]IMG_7874.jpg


Mid section cross brace

Brace8.jpgupload pictures free

Compare that to the RS below when it was fresh off the boat from Japan and I think the conclusion has to be drawn that Mazda somewhere along the line "lost the plot". I'd never ever buy another MX5 beyond a mk1 - or any later Mazda for that matter. I saw a Mazda 3 on a 4 poster at the MOT station a couple of years back, it wasn't that old but it was as crusty as hell underneath, so I think they're all built to the same low standard.

This was 22 years old when the photo was taken

P9300093.jpg
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That's exactly how I imagined it from your description, Steve. My previous, 10-plate NC2 was showing the same signs of paint abrasion and corrosion at 6 years-old. Mine also had rust starting under the sills on both sides, along the flange which joins the sill with the floor-pan.

This was pointed out by my dealer at the time and he suggested a "good wire-brushing and Waxoyling" Wire-brushing!! On a 6 year-old, modern sports car!!

When I bought it new, showroom fresh, in 2010, I really believed it would last me for as long as I wanted it to with certainly no thoughts about corrosion. It just isn't something that car buyers have needed to be concerned about in recent years is it? Certainly for the last 20 years the issue has been more about the failure of complex electrics than body/chassis corrosion.

Mazda have, with the MX-5, taken us back to the joys of 60s and 70s sports car motoring in more ways than we envisaged - they have included authentic 60s and 70s terminal body rot!

An extra tenner's worth of undersqueal, properly applied on the production line, is all that's required.
Mazda couldn't care less, im convinced they want their cars to be no better than white goods to dispose of after a few years the buy another one. the MK4 is no better in the rust proofing department either. Scandalous and they have the nerve to ask £ 20,000 plus.
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That's exactly how I imagined it from your description, Steve. My previous, 10-plate NC2 was showing the same signs of paint abrasion and corrosion at 6 years-old. Mine also had rust starting under the sills on both sides, along the flange which joins the sill with the floor-pan.
This was pointed out by my dealer at the time and he suggested a "good wire-brushing and Waxoyling" Wire-brushing!! On a 6 year-old, modern sports car!!

When I bought it new, showroom fresh, in 2010, I really believed it would last me for as long as I wanted it to with certainly no thoughts about corrosion. It just isn't something that car buyers have needed to be concerned about in recent years is it? Certainly for the last 20 years the issue has been more about the failure of complex electrics than body/chassis corrosion.

Mazda have, with the MX-5, taken us back to the joys of 60s and 70s sports car motoring in more ways than we envisaged - they have included authentic 60s and 70s terminal body rot!

An extra tenner's worth of undersqueal, properly applied on the production line, is all that's required.
Mazda couldn't care less, im convinced they want their cars to be no better than white goods to dispose of after a few years the buy another one. the MK4 is no better in the rust proofing department either. Scandalous and they have the nerve to ask £ 20,000 plus.
Sadly I've also reached this conclusion having recently bought a 4 1/2 year old Toyota the difference in build quality is like night and day... if it wasn't for the fact they're so fantastic to drive enthusiastically...
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As you all know I have had an enforced early retirement due to illness, but once a week I have taken the bus to my old job to break up the week and to help out around the garage, prepping coaches, etc. Just light duties which I can cope with.

Yesterday there was an eleven plate (2011) Skoda Octavia Estate car over the pit (a friend of the boss' I think) so I snuck a peek underneath. The car only had 33,000 miles on the 'clock' but its' still 7 years old.

I was astonished at the quality of the underside. Apart from some surface road dirt the black painted suspension components were as new. Also, the entire underbody was completely coated in thick, evenly applied, flexible, textured underseal. There was no sigh of corrosion anywhere, not even brake pipe ferules, fasteners, brackets or nut/bolt heads.

Here, then, was a vehicle that had been clearly designed for the long term in the inclement climate of Northern Europe. I also noted the absence of stone chips on the front.

Neither was it an especially nurtured vehicle, with some scratches and scuffs and an untidy interior.

A few Euros-worth of underseal and cavity wax, applied on the 'line, and decent quality paint, is all a modern vehicle needs to allow it to last 20 years or more without concern for the type of corrosion many of us have seen under our later-model MX-5s. But we all know that don't we [rhet].
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That's exactly how I imagined it from your description, Steve. My previous, 10-plate NC2 was showing the same signs of paint abrasion and corrosion at 6 years-old. Mine also had rust starting under the sills on both sides, along the flange which joins the sill with the floor-pan.

This was pointed out by my dealer at the time and he suggested a "good wire-brushing and Waxoyling" Wire-brushing!! On a 6 year-old, modern sports car!!

When I bought it new, showroom fresh, in 2010, I really believed it would last me for as long as I wanted it to with certainly no thoughts about corrosion. It just isn't something that car buyers have needed to be concerned about in recent years is it? Certainly for the last 20 years the issue has been more about the failure of complex electrics than body/chassis corrosion.

Mazda have, with the MX-5, taken us back to the joys of 60s and 70s sports car motoring in more ways than we envisaged - they have included authentic 60s and 70s terminal body rot!

An extra tenner's worth of undersqueal, properly applied on the production line, is all that's required.
Mazda couldn't care less, im convinced they want their cars to be no better than white goods to dispose of after a few years the buy another one. the MK4 is no better in the rust proofing department either. Scandalous and they have the nerve to ask £ 20,000 plus.
An alterntive perspective is....Mazda are charging around the same today, or in some cases a good bit less.... as they were in the late 90's & early 2000's.

Jasper Conran Mk2s to name one. £24k back in the day for the silver one.

There is little excuse for such poor attention to detail in anti corrosion I agree. People here know I've probably spent more than anyone in Life repairing 5 rot.

It's just...they are relatively cheap as chips, the best affordable drop top fun from new, and they are what they are. In dire need of being "Drumtochtied" I agree...but zero inflation in prices for 2 decades? You could fill a 5 fuel tank from empty to click for less than £30.00.

What I find a bit odd is how other massed produced cars appear far more long lasting and generally robust.

They are not "cheap" sports cars though...but run of the mill Euroboxes.

We may well ask how Mazda "manage" the frozen prices instead? One answer is excessive bean counting quality control in the protection dept..not to forget soft paint etc.

Would anyone pay, say, another £1000.00/£1,500.00 for part galvanising & injections?

Are we happier to nab a bargain, be pragmatic, and do it for around £300 or less ourselves?

Would I buy a new ND? No.

I'd buy something like IanH's once he's done with it though...as I know it has been anti-rotted comprehensively.

Bottom line for me is , a new ND is a sports car bargain, built to a price, shortcuts taken, could do better, but the 21st century Mk1 revisited in many senses.
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I think the whole point here is that MX-5s are, in the main, bought by enthusiasts - dedicated drivers - many of whom would cheerfully abandon the myriad, additional electronic fripperies in favour of longevity, vis-á-vis proper corrosion proofing.

I would certainly be more than happy to renege on the utterly hopeless 'navigation' system, unnecessary automatic wipers and lights, etc,etc, in favour of a sports car which will still be solid and not have the integrity of gruyére cheese after 15 - 20 years.

I am also not convinced it would cost anywhere near "another £1000.00/£1,500.00 for part galvanising & injections?" if the extra work is carried out during normal production.

Some may say that longevity doesn't sell as well as high-tech, electronic baubles - and this may well be true on dull, euro-box, shopping trolley hatchbacks - but I stand resolute in that, with the MX-5, it would!
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Nobody I personally know Kev is more dedicated to keeping rotting 5s on the road than I am.

I think SWMBO and I have earned our spurs to be more pis*ed off at Mazda than anyone....because we are prepared to stick with the faults..as enthusiasts.

For me, the whole point is today's 5s are a billy bargain. They have such a low price point, I think it is reasonable to expect aspects of less than desirable build quality, compromised by engineers throttled by corporate bean counters. Nothing new in that view..it's been mooted before.

I don't know what additional costs rot proofing would bring either but quite simply, my pragmatic viewpoint is based on a simple math.

Index link around £24,000 for a 2000 year Jasper Silver and you end up around £34,963.00 today for it's grandaughter.To my mind, for 35k a 2.0 SatNav ND would need to be the dog's in every respect. It would need to be dripping with rot proofing, and have the very best materials nose to tail. But, no. They "need" to be built to Yen pinched compromises just as Mk3's & Mk3.5's were and all before them to enable Joe Public to get close to affording them.

My 93 Roadster was over 17.5k in UK terms, and it's shortly going to have..a large...amount restoring it. Should be good for another 146,000 miles after it. Call it "recycling". I'd rather chuck 2.5k plus at it now, and enjoy an emerging classic than anything else for the last ten / fifteen years or so of my driving career. Mk1's were bean counted way back as well. For one thing, the (now) expensive front splitter that stops high speed wandering was production-deleted on cost basis. So were additional chassis braces available only on higher end editions. Early cheap OEM steel wheels?

It's been going on for almost 30 years. Mazda have been having a laugh for ages with "Ltds". Take the Dakar. Pov spec trim, weak engine, paint it BRG classic green, slap some laurel leaf stickers on, number them for added perceived rose-tinted showroom appeal, flog em quick. And, they did.

I was invited to the VIP Mazda day pre- ND launch, drove a few examples hard and came away blitzed by the way they drove but unimpressed with a few aspects of build quality...and I got underneath to look at the essentially bare chassis. I still determined one day, we will have one to replace the Sport. Why? I can sort of forgive the more questionable aspects due to relative "cheapness". Around 10k cheaper? Say 5k even?

Just another perspective from a pragmatic die-hard enthusiast with epic & expensive rot eradication experience.

It'd be brilliant if Npower & Tesco reverted to year 2000 prices including fuel @ 80 per litre. Of course, if they did, they would go out of business.

Somehow, God knows how in detail, Mazda have managed to freeze 25K, and sub 25K barriers through 3 model cycles.

A car is a commodity like anything else. It's still, at any price,the most expensive single purchase for many bar a house.

With a 5 the emphasis, in my opinion, has always been focused on the design & engineering to provide an affordable driver's experience for the masses who cannot stretch to a Porsche, Morgan, or Lotus. Not bullet proof quality. Prices have effectively been frozen in real terms for nigh on 2 decades. Something has to give. It's not quality of actual construction or design which is in question but one of general finish & attention to details affecting longevity. As long as 5's slip past the warranty periods with ( in Mazda's mind) as little comeback as possible, that is all they require. That's business. We could walk away with our wallets, but we do not.

Better protected & finished mainstream EuroBlobs need to be a cut above. They have to compete with scores of other EuroBlobs. The 5 does not. It has no direct price-point competition that would appeal to the traditional "driver". Perhaps...there lie some of the answers. However, there is cheap and cheerful and downright shoddy. With NDs, rubbish gearboxes, leccy issues, hood issues, odd battery behaviours, but potentially worst of all...a possibility of diffs locking up during" enthusiast" track days are blighting their good name.There is a video of it actually happening. And yet, there are those whose ND's have performed well without any issues. So far. This smells of patchy quality control.

If you care to spend a bit of time on the OC forum, there seems to be component & electical issues visiting new ND owners that would not have been issues in say...Mk2.5 days...before the chassis rail, sill & wing nonsense. These issues were down to design as much as anything, but not quality. For me, the Mk2.5 was the best quality 5 ever on a number of levels, interior especially.

Mk3's? Dodgy engines, cracked screens, poor seat quality, scratchy piano key dashes, leaks, crumbly boots, nasty alloy issues, soft paint etc. 5 build quality has been, I believe, compromised by bean counting production pressures for many years on a good few well documented levels.

All backed up by a dismissive and cynical Mazda UK " Customer Insult Dept"

Used NCs are beginning to cause rot concerns especially in hidden rear sills & arches where plastic skirts trapped filth. People are being told to take care which they buy following the well documented engine bearing issues, which I believe was addressed later on.

It's not as if repeat & experienced buyers don't know the score, or suffer from selective memory. Most I know are right on it, warts & all.

I'm puzzled if Mazda even make a decent profit on them...or are they flag waving loss leaders? Who knows.

Bottom line is for me, they always have been low-cost sports cars for the masses, became global winners, but affordable to aspiring middle wage earners through production Yen driven compromise...which could also be considered a very clever & targetted marketing exercise. Pays you money, takes your choices. 25K today is no mean amount. 18+ years back, it was a lot, lot more.
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